In episode four of “Is This Thing On?,” GALE President of Content & Managing Director Shannon Pruitt calls on old friend Patrizio “Pato” Spagnoletto, global chief marketing officer at Discovery Inc., to dish on lessons learned throughout their careers when change has been the only constant.
We’ve included the full transcript of the conversation below for easy reading, and please make sure to have a listen on Amazon, Apple Podcasts, Audible, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, and wherever else you get your podcasts!
Episode 4: Shannon Pruitt & Pato Spagnoletto
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Is this thing on?
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to Is This Thing On, an audio series from GALE, exploring marketing, life, and random thoughts with business leaders from around the globe. On this episode, GALE President of Content and Managing Director, Shannon Pruitt, speaks with Global Chief Marketing Officer at Discovery, Patrizio Spagnoletto. Let's join the conversation.
Shannon Pruitt (00:30):
Actually, I know a lot about your sort of current professional career because we've been friends and we met through this business, but I think what's really interesting to explore today is a little bit about how you got here and some of the lessons you learned along the way. And so some of this is an interesting way for me to get to know you even better, which is always fun. And I hope that we'll be able to have some fun with this today.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (00:54):
I'm sure we will.
Shannon Pruitt (00:55):
Okay. We never have fun Pato, what are you talking about? Okay. So the first question is what did you want to be when you grew up?
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (01:07):
Well, like most people when they were young, I wanted to be a rock star. I really thought I was going to do it. In fact, when I... So I grew up in Europe and I came to the states and I joined a band and then I joined another, and when I moved to LA, you probably don't know this, but I actually played in bars and clubs in LA for the first few years.
Shannon Pruitt (01:26):
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (01:26):
Shannon Pruitt (01:27):
What was the name of your band?
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (01:28):
I didn't have a band. It was just me. Just Pato.
Shannon Pruitt (01:31):
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (01:31):
And it was acoustic sets at a place called Coconut Teaser, which doesn't exist anymore. And then I realized I wasn't making any money. I'm like, "Huh, so I'm going to move on to a real job," and that's when I moved to kind of focus more on marketing and I've been in this for a few months, maybe years.
Shannon Pruitt (01:51):
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (01:52):
Shannon Pruitt (01:52):
We may need to get you up on a stage though at some point so you can perform for us. What instrument were you playing?
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (01:59):
I played guitar and keyboard, but barely enough basically for accompanying, but it's fun.
Shannon Pruitt (02:07):
Wait? Were you singing at the same time? What was your go to song Pato? What's your go to song?
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (02:12):
Shannon Pruitt (02:14):
They were all originals?
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (02:15):
Shannon Pruitt (02:16):
I mean, I feel like I don't even know who you actually are Pato, so this is so exciting.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (02:22):
Shannon Pruitt (02:22):
Well, someday you will be playing an original somewhere even when you least expect it. It's going to be exciting. You should wait for that.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (02:28):
Shannon Pruitt (02:30):
It's kind of like when you go to a restaurant and every time you go a friend of yours tells them it's your birthday. You ever have that happen?
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (02:34):
Yep. I think I am that friend for you.
Shannon Pruitt (02:40):
You are that friend for me. That's what's so fun about this. Okay, so you said you had to kind of get a real job, not that being a rockstar is not a real job, but in terms of job that might pay the bills for you. So how did you get that first job? So how did you get into marketing and what was it that... You could have done anything, right, you were a rockstar, so you could have actually done anything. Why did you choose this field and how did you break into it?
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (03:07):
So, first off I was an aspiring rockstar, just to be clear, and second of all... So look, I knew I liked marketing even though I didn't quite know what it was to be very honest with you. And so the first job I got was in a company called Parmalat. It's actually an Italian company that does like milk in a box. It's actually fairly big outside of the US and they were launching here, and I joined them and it was really hands-on of everything from advertising, to pricing, to packaging. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is actually really fun."
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (03:38):
And if I can kind of take on this part of the question to kind of how it evolved, after a few years I got a job offer at Nestle and at the time that was here in LA and that's what made me move out here. And I was at Nestle for a little over two years and look, Nestle is just an amazing company. It's like one of the most traditional, classic, brand management companies and I sucked at it. I just was not good at it. And honestly, I think it was because I was not ready for that type of company. And I don't know that I've said this publicly too often, but it was one of those like let's mutually agree to leave each other type things. And I was devastated. I'm like, "No, I can do this. I can do it."
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (04:26):
And it was the best thing that ever happened to me because out of that, I ended up going to a small startup and then out of that startup, because it basically didn't start, it was right around the 2000s.
Shannon Pruitt (04:36):
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (04:38):
I had to find a job quickly because of my visa situation and ended up going to a company that was called goto.com, which then got rebranded to Overture, which then got bought by Yahoo. And I ended up staying in that kind of version of the company for like 13 years. And it was the best thing that could've ever happened to me, but it would have never happened if that experience at Nestle hadn't happened. So it was kind of stumbling into something that was just so good for my career, good for me personally, and across the board.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (05:11):
So all that to say that as much as I would love to sit here and tell you that every move was deliberate and planned, it could not be further from the truth. It was just not that way at all and there was a fair share of luck and timing that kind of helped me kind of progress. But I'm assuming it's a little bit the same with you, no?
Shannon Pruitt (05:33):
Absolutely. If you look at it as, "Oh, obviously you would start in like sport... You were a Japanese major in college in your very small town and then you end up going to Japan, and then I was in sports marketing and then I started working in production in integrated marketing to where I am today." Everywhere along the way, kind of like you, I went to a startup, I then did... I always wanted to be a CMO. So then obviously out of Story Lab, I got the job as the CMO of the Honest Company, and kind of like what happened with you at Nestle, I came in at a point where I think they weren't ready for me and I had convinced them that they were.
Shannon Pruitt (06:16):
And that was a very interesting part of the journey because to leave that was also very difficult, but then kind of I did the same sort of thing where it was like, for me, that soul searching came. It was like, "What do I love to do?" I love content. I love storytelling. I love connecting with audiences and creating things that allow them to connect back with you, but also in a way that's measurable because what I learned at the very early part of it is that if it wasn't measurable, you couldn't prove it. It was curiosity, opportunity, a little bit of luck, and sort of this ability to believe that I could do whatever I set my mind to that kind of set me on that path. And quite frankly, that's how we met, right? It was funny, think of all these things, if you hadn't done all those things and I hadn't done all those things, we wouldn't have met at that party randomly and then from that moment on, it was like, "Oh, this is how you go forward."
Shannon Pruitt (07:12):
You meet people. There are experiences and moments in time that present themselves and you get to choose if you stay and talk to that person, or if you take that opportunity, or you walk away and you may never see it again.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (07:23):
You said a couple of things that resonate for me. One is it didn't look like it going forward, but when you look back you're like, "Huh, there actually was a theme in something that helped me get to where I got to." And for me, that theme was I just loved to be in a place where you got the build, where, as I call it to myself, it's like the margin of error is wide because nobody's really done it before. At a company like Nestle, they've done it for so long and have perfected the machine that I'm coming in, I'm like, "What am I going to do? Change it by one point?" And like, "No, that's not for me even if it's a great job."
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (08:01):
But going to Yahoo from 2000 to 2013, even if the company changed so much in those years, there was always this window where I'm like, "Oh, I get to build something. I get to do something that's new." Even when I went to, after leaving Yahoo, I went to Farmers and a lot of people are like, "What are you doing?"
Shannon Pruitt (08:20):
Oh, you did?
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (08:20):
Shannon Pruitt (08:21):
I didn't know that you did that. In my mind you went from Yahoo to Hulu.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (08:25):
Shannon Pruitt (08:26):
But you went to Farmers, okay.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (08:27):
I had a couple rebounds. A couple rebounds. I'm not going to lie. But I'll tell you like for Farmers, a lot of people were like, "Why?" It's a company that's also been around forever. And the reason is that they had asked me to join to help them build their digital business and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is like a startup instead of a big company. I totally want to do this." And it was great. It was such a great experience. Even after that, when I went to an actual startup on the ad tech side, again, huge margin of error of come in and just build something, which then honestly, even at Hulu, like when I joined Hulu, A) it was my first entertainment company, and B) I went into it kind of at the time Hulu had about 11 million subscribers. They were slowing down, but the request was like, "Hey, do you want to come in and just help us figure it out?" I'm like, "Oh my God, yes. Are you kidding me?" Even if I knew nothing about the entertainment industry, it attracted me.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (09:23):
The second thing that you said that I think is just so important is just that inner belief that you can figure it out. Because if you go into these jobs like, "Oh my God, I don't know it." And you have imposter syndrome, it's game over. But if you go into it like, "I don't know it. I know I don't know it, but I think I can figure this out. I have hopefully the intellectual horsepower and hopefully the right disposition to pick it up." And I think those two things for me have been, like you said, just in retrospect, those themes that I think I can lean on these. And by the way, whether it's professional or personal, it all intertwines. But I don't know, it's been fun. It's been a lot of fun. I feel really lucky to be where we are today, including this call.
Shannon Pruitt (10:10):
Including this call. I know, which is exciting. A lot of what you said, which is somebody says to you, "Hey, do you want to come give this a shot?" And that was sort of the same for me when I went from Mark Burnett, running integrated marketing there, to Fremantle, they said, "Hey, do you want to run integrated marketing, but also can you take on live events?" And I'm like, "I don't know anything about that, but I can figure that out." And then suddenly I was working on touring and talent and all these things I had no real expertise in, but then became... You know, I always say I know enough about a lot of things to be dangerous, which also then gives you confidence.
Shannon Pruitt (10:52):
When you taught that USC course like I taught that USC course, the same course, and it's sort of this interesting thing where you're building a tool belt all the time that you can sort of pull if you need a hammer or you need a screw, but what you become is really an architect of understanding how the house gets built and when you bring in those things and in what order, which is great as you build the skill set over time, which kind of leads me to when you went to Hulu, because obviously Hulu was not Hulu as we know it today.
Shannon Pruitt (11:21):
I mean, I remember when Jason started Hulu and it was all this hubbub about like different entertainment companies and studios were all investing in the same platform and how was it going to work and how is it going to compete with traditional entertainment? And so when you took that job, can you tell us a little bit about that beyond sort of like, "I want to build something. There's a margin of error that I can kind of capitalize on to find my way through." But when you got in there, were there any key and critical moments where you were kind of like, "Oh my gosh, this is an amazing opportunity, or this is a moment in time that I don't really know what I'm going to do, but I'm going to figure this out." What was sort of happening with you as you joined that company and then obviously now you've left the company as the CMO, which is amazing? But what happened over the course of that time?
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (12:14):
A lot. That's the short answer.
Shannon Pruitt (12:17):
A lot, I know. Sorry.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (12:18):
But look, I think there's what I would call above the line and below the line and not in marketing terms. And I'll start with the below the line. The below the line is just trust in the process. There were disciplines that just did not exist that I knew we needed, whether it's around media planning, it's around CRM, the stuff that nobody really gets excited about and says, "Look at me, I'm going to put this on my resume." But guess what, those are the things that make a difference. Because if you don't have that plumbing in place, it doesn't matter.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (12:49):
So I found my own little safety net in going back to that plumbing, because that's kind of what I knew, and in that process there's a little bit of luck. Because the first year at Hulu, as I mentioned, the growth had slowed, but in the nine months after we launched our first breakthrough success with The Handmaid's Tale, we launched our live service, we had some great campaigns on the marketing side, and it wasn't any one of those things, but it was the sum of those things that really started to move ourselves from first gear, to second gear, to third gear.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (13:26):
We started a new channel on partnerships with Spotify and Sprint, things that were just net new to the business. And the ones that I'm mentioning are the ones that worked. I can give you a list that's three times as long of the things that didn't work. And one of the things that I... So, I can't remember which podcast this was or book, but there's this notion or this risk of resulting, which is if you play poker, you get a really bad hand, but you end up winning. You're like, "Oh, maybe it's not that bad at hand."
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (13:58):
No, no, it's a bad hand. You just got lucky. But the same is true with the opposite. If you have a good hand, you just keep playing it, you may not win every time and you have to trust on kind of the strategy part and let the execution kind of flow out over time. And I think that's what happened with us at Hulu and I was just lucky enough to be part of that process and to learn. One of the things that I absolutely loved about the Hulu culture was this ongoing sense of optimism and kind of wanting to prove to the world that we had something that was really meaningful. And especially, again in that first year, it was really hard because you kind of had to look inside. It's like, "Okay, but what is it that we really have?"
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (14:42):
And it came over time and one success leads to another. And for personally, one of my biggest lessons is when I first came in I'm like, "All right, I got this. I totally got this." And after three months, I'm like, "Nope, I do not got this. Nope. Do not got this at all." And so, one of the personal lessons that I keep trying to remind myself is that courage and humility, or courage and vulnerability, I actually have to co-exist. You can't be courageous, but then be like, "Nope, I got it all." You have to be courageous and understand that you don't know it all and that there's plenty of people around you who are willing to help if you're willing to ask for the help.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (15:31):
And so, for me it's been extremely liberating to be able to walk into a room and sometimes just say, "I don't know. Help." And more often than not, it actually ends up coming up with something much bigger and better than I could've ever, ever done on my own. So, that was the Hulu experience and I loved every minute of it. And I know that you've had incredible jobs and careers and I'm assuming, but I guess I will ask you back, what are your lessons because I want to learn from those too?
Shannon Pruitt (15:59):
Oh my gosh. Not dissimilar to yours really. I think probably the reason we're such good friends is that we are very similar in our professional lives as we are in our personal life. So, this notion of courage and vulnerability, I've never been one to believe that I know everything and I think walking in and understanding-
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (16:25):
I've seen otherwise, Shannon. I've seen otherwise.
Shannon Pruitt (16:27):
Listen Pato, we're on a podcast. I'm trying to present differently to the outside world.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (16:32):
Just kidding. Just kidding. My bad, my bad. My bad, okay.
Shannon Pruitt (16:38):
Interestingly, you and I both actually just joined companies in the middle of a pandemic where you don't have the same ability to walk in, and you're walking in as an expert or whatever, but you're connecting with everybody over technology, which is a different vibe and a different way of collaborating, and a different way of leading, and a different way of being led. So there's all these different things, which I think what primed me for this ability to take this job actually in the middle of a pandemic are some of the things that you're saying. And then I think also there's a lot of people around you who are really good, like you're saying. You should build a team of experts around you. I always say, I know enough to be dangerous about different things, but I actually don't. If you ask me to deeply go in and actually do the plumbing, I can't be your plumber, but I can tell you how the plumbing should... Where it goes in and in what order and all those things.
Shannon Pruitt (17:36):
The other piece is listening. I think an empathy for people and kind of what they're... Because everyone is having their own experience always, so in the context of your job, in the context of their personal life, and we're seeing it now more than ever during COVID, everyone is having their own experience. And so listening to people and understanding where they are, whether it's in their professional journey, what's driving them, are they the new guy or new girl on the scene who are like, "Oh, I can do all of it." And it's like three months in, they're like, "Nope, can't do any of it." Using your own lessons to tap into other people and what they're going through is the part of being in this world that I actually love, because that gives you this kind of relatability and then also strengthens you. I learn from those people all the time.I love to learn new things. And so that's sort of one of the key lessons for everything I think.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (18:32):
You know, one of the things that I was just thinking about was it's true and we all say that we want to build a team of experts that are better than us and that is the best thing to do. The dark side to that question is like, "Well, if everyone's better than me, then what value do I add?"
Shannon Pruitt (18:48):
That's right. That's right.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (18:50):
And that is such a... Like that imposter syndrome of like where is it?
Shannon Pruitt (18:56):
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (18:57):
First of all, I don't think that I have the right answer, but where I'm at right now on that answer, thanks to the coaches and mentors that I've had and opportunities I've had with people on my team is at some point our job is less about a specific skillset and it's more about leadership. It's more about vision. It's more about optimism. It's about connecting those dots.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (19:20):
And yes, if you have a skill set that you want to practice once in a while, go crazy. But it's so much more than that, that when you're driving teams, let alone larger teams, you just can't get into everything. Even if you wanted to, you just can't. So you got to pick the few things that are important, but most importantly, just give people something to look forward to or something to aspire to. And I've had incredible managers and mentors, thankfully, that kind of reminded me of that. And I think as we all grow in our careers, a lot of people probably have asked you as well like, "Oh, how did you get to this level," and whatever, and the honest answer is like, "I don't know," other than just being at the right place and trying to do the right job, but most importantly, just trying to be that optimistic person in the room, and optimism without a plan is nothing, but having both is what I think makes it real.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (20:19):
And slowly but surely, the right leaders, the right people will recognize you and they will mentor you and they will help you grow. And at some point you'll become that person who has to then turn around and do it for those who are earlier in their careers. And I am at a point right now where I absolutely love doing that. I think probably the most fulfilling part of the job is to find and nurture talent. And it's equally fulfilling for the person as it is for me. Well, maybe you should ask the person. Maybe they don't find it so fulfilling, but I think it is in general. So I don't know, it's fun. And you and I always talk about this, we are eternally grateful for just the opportunities we've had.
Shannon Pruitt (21:02):
Exactly. I did do a survey of your employees, so they're not finding as much value in that sort of thing as you are. Just kidding.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (21:09):
We're going to edit this part out, so that's fine.
Shannon Pruitt (21:15):
I totally believe that. Because that's the way that you show up in the world, which is incredible and I think even as you're taking on moving from Hulu to Discovery, because Discovery is a global company. You are the global CMO now, which means cutting across cultures and continents, which by the way, you're Italian. You came here. I think I just most recently asked you, "How'd you get to the US," and you're like, "College." I didn't know the answer to that question, but what's interesting is that diversification of business. What's going to be important in different places and times and all of those things for the audiences. How do you think some of these things are all coalescing around all these lessons that we're sort of talking about? How are they coalescing around this new role now that you've been in it for a few months? I think, right?
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (22:12):
Shannon Pruitt (22:12):
I don't know. Time is like irrelevant to me. I don't actually... I think yesterday was like three years ago. Like I don't know. But how's that all come together?
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (22:23):
It's like a video game and Discovery is the next level. I'm like, "Oh my God, I got to the next level." And the next level is building on all the great experiences that I was exposed to at Hulu, but to your point, now it's on a global stage. And going back to like the builds, look, Discovery has been an incredibly successful company for the last three or four decades, but we are now at a point where we need to pivot, as many media companies do, to understand and lean on the streaming side of the business without forgetting that there's this huge part of the business that has been successful so far.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (22:59):
So for me, back to that humility, is appreciating the history and the success of the business and figuring out how do we evolve that into the streaming world globally. And I'll come back to the global part in a second, but look, Discovery has incredible assets and content. It also has incredible people. And everybody's leaning into this and it's kind of a collective like, "We know where we need to go. We don't know quite sure how we will get there, if it's three lefts and a right, or three rights and a left, but we know we're going to get there." And then you do that globally and you introduce this notion of, not only different market dynamics, which is there, but different cultural dynamics. When you're like a change agent, which I kind of hate that word, but whatever, when you're a person who's coming in and just helping move things along, the way you do it in the states is very different than the way that you do it in Italy or India or Brazil, because there's just different dispositions.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (23:59):
To me that's the next level psychological challenge because, like you said, having been raised outside of the US, I can appreciate some of those cultural differences and what I have to keep reminding myself is that when we say we're global, global doesn't mean, "Hey, it starts in the US and then we make sure the rest of the world gets it." Global means it's truly any idea campaign or program can and should come from anywhere in the world and then move and travel to the rest of the regions, including the US. So far, well again, if you ask me, so far, so good. If you ask others, maybe not so much, but it's been an incredible experience.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (24:43):
I just love the people I work with and for, and obviously we've had some news in the last few days about a potential merger, which, I obviously can't speak to it much, but it's just a sign of the times that things are continuously changing. And so it's just back to feeling lucky and grateful of being in a position right now where you kind of have an opportunity to help shape you in some of this.
Shannon Pruitt (25:09):
Yeah. Oh, I love that. And I mean, I feel like the tailwinds for you, which is so exciting, are in your favor, and you're perfectly primed to do all of these things based on your experience, but also who you are. Okay, so I just have one last question, because I think we have to do a nice little summary at the end of this time we get to spend together. So, we talked a lot about lessons, and I think, based on the variety of folks that we'll listen to this, what are like the three things, or maybe even just two, because we don't have much time left. You know, what are the two things that you think are really important to remember, because as you said, change is really the only constant, right? So what are the two things that you would roll all this up into that you would leave people with, and me, as we exit?
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (26:00):
Sure. I'm plagiarizing on both, but these are things that I've heard from others that I love. Number one is focus on your internal narrative and your inner voice of what you tell yourself shapes so much of how you carry yourself in what you do. It does for me. If I leave a meeting that was horrible, there's a difference between saying, "That was a horrible meeting," and "Oh boy, I'm horrible." And it's so important to just keep that positive disposition.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (26:30):
The second, which is maybe a little bit more practical is, I can't remember where I heard this, but there was a really simple question of like, if it was simple, how would you do it? Because we try and complicate things so quickly and so easily. It's like actually, but if it was simple, and sometimes you'll be really surprised. I've been really surprised on what the answer is there. I'm like, "Oh my God. All those 18 factors that I'm trying to solve for maybe not so much, maybe it's actually just one and everything else is just a door that I've put in front of it that I don't need to put in front of."
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (27:00):
So look, I don't know if those are the two best or two period, but for me, those are the ones that are particularly relevant right now in the journey that we're on. And I don't know if we have the time, but I almost would love to ask you what yours are.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
I have several. Shocker. But I think the Google moonshots people always say always be a beginner at something. I think that's so important because whether it's in your job or from outside sources, being able to think about how those things feed your professional and your personal self makes you a better professional leader and a more interesting person, right? If you are interested, then you are interesting. That's sort of the way that I see that world. And then the other piece is when I started out in entertainment, someone said to me you should always be nice to the assistant, which was a great way to level set, which is we are all people. We are all human beings and someday you might work for that person, but also they are a person who's working hard and showing up every day and you have no idea if they're being screamed at or whatever's going on. So I just love that, which is just always show up with kindness and thoughtfulness and optimism and being a good person, and then you will find your way no matter what.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (28:29):
I love that. I will add one more to help us close, which is surround yourself with great friends, which is you. I am so thankful, not just for us on this podcast, but I truly believe and it's been so much fun. So, thank you.
Shannon Pruitt (28:42):
I'm so thankful you did this with me and you are such a great friend and good human, and I'm so excited for all your success that you're having and thank you for doing this with me.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (28:52):
All right. Thank you. I'll see you back out there in the real world.
Shannon Pruitt (28:54):
I'll see you in the real world.
Patrizio (Pato) Spagnoletto (28:55):
Shannon Pruitt (28:56):
Speaker 1 (28:57):
This has been Is This Thing On, the GALE audio series. For more information about this or any other episode in the series, visit gale.agency/ideas and to learn about GALE and how we can help you with your marketing efforts, visit www.galepartners.com. On behalf of the entire team at GALE, thanks for listening.